Also: too many asterisks.

[sabinelagrande]

Dear flist:

I have Gender Trouble trouble (seriously, I have an IQ of ~140 and one tenth of a PhD in anthropology- if I can't make any sense of your book, you're a bad writer). So, here is something (which is both thinky and TMI) I have put to ponderation lately. SGA, GS, and House (sort of) examples used herein, though you don't really need to know anything about those fandoms to understand.



Here's the thing. I'm looking for SGA Conversion* AU, because blue!John does inappropriate things to me (in my pants).

So, obviously, my first stop was the McShep stories, cause that's just kinda how I roll.** These stories were essentially what I was expecting to find: Rodney was inserted in place of Teyla or Weir, John shoved him against the nearest flat surface, Rodney protested, John ignored him, Rodney got into it pretty quickly. That's the standard dubcon formula, right? No problems there.***

Having exhausted that, I moved on to the Sheppard/Weir. I could only find two fics where they went ahead and got it on, and neither instance was dubcon. In one instance, it was emphasized that they'd had a prior relationship, and Weir explicitly gave Sheppard permission; in the other, it was spun in terms of Elizabeth trying to help John out.

This has been my general problem reading Sheppard/Weir: with a few notable exceptions, everybody seems to want to portray their relationship as perfectly egalitarian. As, y'know, a human person, I'm totally behind that, but as a consumer of porn and a submissive, I'm in it for the power imbalance. I want to see Sheppard unapologetically shove Weir up against the wall and dubcon her like it's going out of style, because I want Sheppard to unapologetically shove me up against the wall. I have read a really good fic where John and Weir were in a D/s relationship with Weir as the sub, but even there, John was deeply uncomfortable about the whole idea. Is it too much to ask for John to get off too?

This is what got me to thinking: it's so much easier to beat male characters up, and I never noticed that before. If I write a fic where Rodney or Edgeworth ties Sheppard or Phoenix up and beats the crap out of him, that's nothing; same goes if Thalassa or Cuddy beats up Valant or Wilson. Hell, I could probably get away with it if Weir tied up Cuddy.**** It's just a story; I'll probably get umpteen comments about how hot it is. But, I will never find it quite as personally satisfying (except the Weir/Cuddy, rawr), because it just doesn't apply to me.

And yet, if I were to write John beating the consensual crap out of Weir, I'd feel obligated to apologize for it, even if I, a cisgendered, man-loving***** woman, thought it was totally hot and not at all insulting or objectifying.

Why do we keep on doing this? Why do we insist on such protection of women in fiction? I'm not saying we should all go out and start reading Frank Miller, but fanfiction is essentially something women write for women. If we can't be honest about our desires with ourselves without couching them in the actions of men, what can we do? Cause it is a statistical impossibility that I can be the only fangirl who wants this.

I couldn't actually find any fic where John dubconned Teyla, which is both surprising and somewhat disappointing, but it would seem to prove my point. But then, it's Wraithbait, which has, literally, thirty times more McShep than John/Teyla to start with, so it may be down to sampling error.

It seems like the only place I can get the porn I want right now is in genderfucked slash, and that's honestly pretty sad. Also hot, but, y'know, still sad.

Oddly enough, I don't seem to encounter this problem as much in Phoenix Wright fic.***** Maybe it's because Mia/Phoenix and Mia/Diego are pretty much the only het ships I read. Mia/Phoenix is almost always written in that order; the problem with writing it the other way around is that it'd be so stunningly out of character that it would overshadow everything else. Mia and Diego are equals- but they're also both really sexualized characters, which seems to make a difference.

I don't think this is a particularly revolutionary opinion, but it's just something I never had cause to consider before. And having done, it bothers me.

---

*Synopsis for the people reading from other fandoms: Sheppard turns into a bug accidentally (see icon) and this makes him a sexy beast for some reason, shoves his teammate and will-they-won't-they partner Teyla against a wall and makes out with her, holds his boss Dr. Weir up against a wall by the neck (no making out, sadly), saves the day, and becomes a real boy again. That's pretty much all you need to know.

**I actually vastly prefer stories where Rodney is the top/dom, but everybody bottoms for blue!John. No exceptions.

***BUT WHERE IN THE FUCK IS THE POST-IRRESISTIBLE DUBCON, PEOPLE.

RODNEY PUT A MIND WHAMMY ON JOHN AND NOBODY BROUGHT FORTH PORN. FOR THE LOVE OF PETE, HE MADE JOHN DO HIS CHORES. I AM SO ASHAMED. AM I GOING TO HAVE TO WRITE IT MY DAMN SELF?

GET YOUR MINDS IN THE GUTTER.

****OTP BITCHES

*****Y'know, half the time. But I love the cock, so it counts.

******The word choice is intentional, cause we all know gender's fucked in AJ; I don't really read AJ fic unless it's K/A or Thalassa/Valant (always in that order).

Comments

[pyrasaur.livejournal.com]

My guess would be that aggressive dubcon toward women -- while a delicious fantasy, I agree -- can very easily feel like it's condoning domestic violence against women. Same way slapstick comedy is very, very rarely used on a female subject. It's just safer to keep the violence trained on men, because everyone knows men can handle it and you're less likely to get whiners coming after you.

Mia/Phoenix is almost always written in that order; the problem with writing it the other way around is that it'd be so stunningly out of character that it would overshadow everything else.

It's so freaking true. XD

[sabinetzin]

I think you've got a point there. I think it's sad, in a way, that we don't think women can- we don't think we can- y'know, man up and take it- and also a little disappointing that we'll let violence against the whole other half of the species stand.

Man, Phoenix couldn't dubcon a paper bag.

[pyrasaur.livejournal.com]

Funny thing about gender and its power imbalance is that the longer you think about it, the more wrong everything seems. I've mused on it plenty at work, where other waitresses sometimes get $100 tips just for flaunting their cleavage a little.

I guess it all boils down to consent. No matter what real world history has to say about women and power, a fic can present women and power however it wants. It's just that sexual shades-of-grey consent must be an intimidating prospect for less confident writers. And the idea probably hasn't even occurred to less experienced writers who are going by porn tropes.

Now I want to write Mia teaching Phoenix how to top her. It'd be hilarious. "No, really, Nick, it's alright."

[beccastareyes]

I'd speculate because people who portray violence against women as something that is condoned by the text, or mistake 'relationship with unequal power dynamics and consent issues' for 'normal/ideal male/female relationship' exist and get published. I'd hazard that it makes it difficult to write something like that when you want to go for 'this is effed up and that's what I like about it' -- the author worries about people getting that fact, and the reader is always wondering 'okay, is the author writing this because kinky time is sexy, or does s/he think that this is not as effed up as it actually is'. (I'd hazard a guess it's easier to write het D/s porn if you could show that it was just something the couple did in the bedroom -- they had an egalitarian relationship, but non-egalitarian sex because that was what got them both off.)

Which is probably why you don't run into it in PW fandom -- Mia/Phoenix has her in the dominant role which avoids the 'female submissive' and Mia/Diego might be easier to show that the D/s sex is just something the two of them do for fun, and doesn't say anything about Mia's position outside of the bedroom*, or is making a grand statement about The Role of Women.

* Or, ya know, whereever they're having sex.

[sabinetzin]

I started writing a response to this, like, hours ago, then just wandered off with the window open. Hmph.

That's a problem that I've run up on a number of times in writing fic- not ever being able to be sure if your audience realizes what you're going for. I mean, not even with things that might be controversial- even twist endings or subtext. Usually, it's just funny when people don't get it, but this all seems too srs biznes for my tastes.

[shadowenangel.livejournal.com]

I actually don't have anything intelligent to say, in part because I think you've already expressed very well a predominant, but much ignored, trend in erotic fiction in general. Go you. I just want to say that reading this makes me want to go write you some really hot chick!sub hardcore D/s.

My brain sort of lives in the gutter.

[sabinetzin]

And that is why I love you with a great and mighty love.

[valentinite.livejournal.com]

Dunno, but I spent *years* mentally beating myself up (and not in the good way) over the fact that I thought I couldn't be a good feminist and a masochist. My mom is a Dworkin-era feminist -- I love her, but sex-positive she ain't.

...I really need to write the "things I expect people know about me already" post for my LJ, don't I. So I don't have to feel sort of awkward about outing myself as kinky on random people's journals.

I've seen a bunch of Diego/Mia that really has some amount of power dynamics going that way, though little or none of it was actually any good. And there's a bunch of Gant/Lana noncon/dubcon. (When done well, I like Gant/Lana dubcon/mindfuck.)

Agreed on Phoenix and paper bags -- hell, when the quiet nun tops you, boy, you're really something.

I'm not fond of genderfuck slash->het because I don't usually like the implicit assumptions about gender. It's occasionally okay, but usually I need both halves of the couple to get flipped for it not to annoy me.

I know very little about SGA and House, so I will leave those alone.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

I couldn't actually find any fic where John dubconned Teyla, which is both surprising and somewhat disappointing, but it would seem to prove my point. But then, it's Wraithbait, which has, literally, thirty times more McShep than John/Teyla to start with, so it may be down to sampling error.

Mind you this comment is about two months later than your original post and I only found it after trolling through your journal looking for something to read (which probably seems stalkerish but it's not, I promise).

Given how much dubcon exists in SGA, I was always looking for the stories with John/Teyla in that situation but like you, came up empty.

I understand the practical reasoning - how closely it could resemble a violent situation for women and yet, I wondered how it was okay if it involved men.

And yeah bug!Shep even gave me, nominal lesbian that I am, a bit of a happy. Watching him push Teyla against the wall - a small part of me wanted him to lock the door and finish what he started or at least let Teyla know that they'd finish later when Carson called. Same with Elizabeth. Then my higher reasoning kicked in and I was like, "OMG, what was I thinking?"

Considering how much dubcon shows up in erotic romances these days, why the hesitation in our own fictional backyards? It's almost like we want the women to be so strong and kick ass that the thought of any of them willingly going to their knees (or being leg there) causes an immediate subconscious freak out.

But...I have bits and pieces of various John/Teyla or John/Teyla/Elizabeth dubcon fics that I'll start and then put aside. So who knows?

[sabinetzin]

Everybody's hot for bug!Shep. I'm not sure why it is. Possibly it involves pheromones.

That's something I didn't think about, but it's so true- modern romance, even the really tame stuff, can get so dubcon-y at points that I don't get why vanilla women read it. Same thing for popular stuff like Twilight, which has total "why you gotta make me hit you, baby" overtones.

Y'know, I wrote this essay, and then I started writing some McKay/Weir dubcon (it wasn't even, really, because at some point in the fic it becomes clear that it's consensual fantasy play), but then I got weirded out and couldn't finish it. (Though possibly this is because it was McKay POV, and I'm about as dom as a bowl of cheese grits.) So I don't know. Maybe it's something we've been socialized into.


And hey, I'm totally okay with being trawled for fic. That's what I'm here for!

[aliaras.livejournal.com]

Also really late, also found trolling for something to read (yay fic!) and found interesting meta instead.

Seconding above commenter's thoughts on Blue!John. I'm not really sure about why there's no fem!sub fic. I think you're probably right, that it hits too close to violence against women - but then again, while I would not be okay with having a male top IRL for that reason, the fantasy is still DAMN hot. Blue!John having his nasty way with Weir? Yes please.

(tangentially - when het shipping, I always shipped John/Weir, never John/Teyla...probably mostly because Weir is hot as all hell.)

Anyways, if I were to write this - can't promise anything, with how my writing projects tend to be - could I bother you for a beta? Also, does that Weir/Cuddy fic exist? Because if so...link?

[sabinetzin]

The Weir/Cuddy fic does exist, though it ended up being more Cuddy/Weir. You can find it here

And I'd be happy to beta!

[wily-one24.livejournal.com]

Word.

I don't exactly read (or watch or know anything about) any of the fandoms you've listed... but there is forever and ever a startling lack of MaleDom/femalesub fic, especially dub-con fic.

I have a real kink for dub-con, D/s where the guy has power, but it rarely if ever gets met. I've pretty much given up looking for it, even in kink memes. It doesn't really get answered.

Sometimes I get a surprise and sometimes I have to write it myself.

I wish more was written.

I don't really have anything more to add as to the *why* it isn't written more. The usual... people don't want to be seen as condoning violence against women, consensual or otherwise, it's a very tricky issue.

Also, writing sexualised fic is a very personal thing and to write MaleDome/femalesub dub-con is to declare a quite specific kink to the world, wherein a lot of fic writers (mainly women) aren't always comfortable admitting to this or showing this side of themselves. And certainly male writers would never (or rarely, I've never seen it) admit to this, for fear of being stoned into oblivion.

It's more socially acceptable to read/write incest fic than fic that "objectifies" and "brutalises" women and their right to consent. Or whatever.

Because godforbid a woman like it rough, the delicate flowers that we are.

(sorry, comment is months late, but this one slipped right past me in January... don't know how).

[mashimero.livejournal.com]

everybody bottoms for blue!John. No exceptions.

Hmm, are there any blue!John/Wraith fics? I don't usually go for Wraith fics because I find their appearance to be more loltastic than anything, but mmm I think blue!John/Wraith being all bitey and vicious, fighting for dominance could be really hot.

If I write a fic where Rodney or Edgeworth ties Sheppard

I thought you were going for an SGA/GS threesome here and my brain shorted out for a minute. And you know you've got me doing crossover art now?

[sabinetzin]

Hmm, you know, I've never read blue!John/Wraith, but I've never gone looking.

OH GOD, blue!John/Wraith!Teyla would be EPIC.

I think my brain just locked up over Rodney/Edgeworth/Sheppard- especially with tied up Shep. Unf. And I TOTALLY APPROVE of this prospective crossover art. I need to finish that Bratworth/Sheppard fic, ASAP.

[merrilily.livejournal.com]

WORD TO YOUR MOTHER.

Seriously! I am so glad to have read this, and so glad that you wrote it! It makes me a little sad and a little disconnected, not always but frequently, that the only place I can go to get my D/s on is slash (not even D/s exactly, I just want to read stories where a man is being outrageously toppy). Certainly, no matter how much I enjoy, say, rageprufrock's Merlin sextras (and hooo boy, do I!), I'm not going to be bringing that plotline to bed with me for, um, extracurricular use.

I used to write non-fanfic porn with significant D/s femme!sub dubcon aspects, but the feedback I got creeped me out enough that I finally stopped. Mostly, this was because it wasn't women who were consuming it (similar to how posting to fanfiction.net is not going to get you into the heart of SGA fandom), and the men who are into toppy!male het erotica are not, it seems, people I want to hang with. Or be on the same side of the street with. (Which is really disappointing!)

Anyway, in sum, Spock/Uhura has very promising possibilities as a pairing that could fulfill this in a way that was hot yet not fucked-up angsty and also ended cheerfully.

Not that anyone's writing such yet, but you know. It could happen.

[miss_prince.livejournal.com]

Late response is late but I'm writing it anyway, since you linked back to this post :P

First off, it's interesting to see others liking toppy men, because for me it's all about sub!women. Femsub fic is a HUGE kink of mine, femslash or het (or bisexual threesome :D?)

But the problem I tend to have with MaleDom/femsub fic is when it IS portrayed consensually, but as a very gender-oriented thing; He is A Man, she is a woman, and as such these are their Right and Natural places -- and that skeeves me a lot. That or when it's written with a pairing where gender issues make me uncomfortable -- Diego/Mia, as an example you gave, bothers me in this way, with his occasional demonstrations of sexism and her overall portrayal as one of the most capable and (I believe) powerful women in the series just... I dunno. It's not for me, personally. Which is interesting, because I'm really fond of non-con with powerful women (Lana, Mia, Dahlia, Franziska...) There's a definite different vibe in having power taken from them rather than freely given, and freely-given power tends to take a subtler touch to write, imo

HOWEVER I'd kind of love to see Phoenix/Edgeworth/Iris D/D/s.